The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. I seen it first hand as well. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. But Im my opinion, they are tools! Skorpion Ammo Type: 9 mm. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. So that is where the saying and belief came from. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. Theres not the penetration of a 9, because the mass of energy is transferred suddenly to the body in impact. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. Thanks for reading and commenting!! well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. Muscle memory is great thing. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. Lexipol. Plenty of gang shootings. sledgehammer. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. We carried 19 rounds of 9mm in combat. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. That and other factors. very obvious. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. I sure do love 45acp though. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. for all the same reasons. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. F=MA is not applicable. A .223 is just 55 grains. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . F = MA is absolutely true as it applies to ballistics. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. This can take several seconds to several minutes or even longer. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Im sure many hunters can attest to the expansion of rifle bullets recovered from their game. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Of course shot placement is important. So dont ask. When the. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. There is little or no noticeable difference in wound tracks between 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto premium line rounds. In most courtrooms today a good lawyer will take you apart for shooting a home invader more than one time if you hit him with the first shot in other words you wounded him with the first shot why did you keep shooting? The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. Sad. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. WebChronic kidney disease is a disease characterized by progressive damage and loss of function in the kidneys. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. In any event, I used that data when shopping for a lighter and more easily concealed EDC than my .357 magnum revolver and hi-cap .45 ACP. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. Pretty broad pattern where adrenaline can also make hands shake. Now as far as the technology of rounds go, technology has improved for all of the basic calibers including 45 so there is no advantage there for the 9. After hours of research, I ordered a Glock .357 sig. It scares the hell out of me to think I might have had to use a 9 mm. Fired expert m14. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. ammo. They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. If it doesnt get deleted for my impatience with thoughtless comments. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. Yes, I know it was a +P round, but then, there arent any grizzly bears in my neck of the woods. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. What you provide is false true and true. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? Thank you. Whether fear or anger, adrenaline can make one shake. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. I have small hands for a guy but I have no problems with accuracy. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! Concurr on 45 and m14 . With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. I also have one that many people will call garbage. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! The story makes that even sound too few. I can shoot consistently accurately. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun! While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. Several firearms in .22LR, .380ACP, 9mm, 7.62x25, 7.62 Nagant, .38/.357, 7.62x54R, .45ACP and .223. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. One writer mentioned the old adage about wounding one and it takes two more to remove him from the field of battle. It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. So any caliber is better than none. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. I do lean toward my 1911 just because I like it. We need to dial back our expectations of what a pistol cartridge can and cant do as an instrument of CQB. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. I have never shot a people. Hmmmmsince there probably wont be any takers how about we all shake hands and realize were all bound brothers with the same interest. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. That is those of us that has and carries guns. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. Because bullet strikes to the torso will not immediately incapacitate an adversary and will not knock him to the ground, police officers need to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations.
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